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Israel 30, Us 15, Fbi 12, Cia 12, Broadwell 5, America 5, David Petraeus 3, Afghanistan 3, Citi 3, Bob 3, Nissan 3, Duracell 3, Petraeus 3, Spencer 2, Pentagon 2, Nissan Pathfinder 2, Beautyrest 2, Tempur-pedic 2, Chris Hayes 2, Benjamin Netanyahu 2,
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  MSNBC    Up W Chris Hayes    News/Business. Smart  
   conversation on news of the day. New.  

    November 18, 2012
    5:00 - 7:00am PST  

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small business saturday. visit shopsmall.com and get ready. because your day is coming. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. as part of his trip through asia, president obama is holding a news conference in thailand. he spoke of the crisis in gaza where strikes hit two buildings in gaza city housing media outlets. we'll have more on that later in the show. first, my story of the week. the real scandal of the petraeus affair. all right. here is the background context to the seemingly unending string of revelations about his extramarital affair that i, and i am not going to front have
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been following with a mix of fascination and shame for the last week and a half. over the last decade, two trends conspired to reduce our privacy. first, there's technology. social media allowed us to share every detail of our lives intentionally and unintensely. the photo tagged on facebook, the wayward strike to reply to all button. you get the picture. we now leave a digital trail traced by anyone who buys access to it. this week, the obama campaign knew what tv shows the targeted voters watched. there's the massive explosion of the surveillance in the wake of 9/11. thanks to the petri at act and continued under the obama administration. the government has more access to info about us than at anytime in history. a small example of what this
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looks like. check out this graph of u.s. government from google. these are requests that don't require warrants and this doesn't include the security related requests not disclosed. for awhile, i thought the combination of these trends, the u bik wiity of technology was pushing us to a future where citizens would be unable to keep their secrets while the government keeps its secrets. i feared it would end up totally exposed to each other and the state. the state and its doing and what it's doing in our name would be a mystery. then miraculously, but also inevitably, they collided with each other in the petraeus affair. the four-star general's communications with broadwell reveal a lot of mundane personal failings.
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really, it seems not anything scandalous as far as the public's fear goes. the only possible scandal, as far as i can tell, is the conditions which the fbi came to read the private e-mails of petraeus and broadwell. the investigation began because jill kelley, an acquaintance of petraeus served as the unpaid liaison in tampa received hostile e-mails that chastised her for flirting with petraeus. kelley complained to an fbi agent and somehow, an fbi investigation into cyber stalking was opened, one that led the fbi to read broadwell's e-mails, then petraeus' and here we are. cyber stalking investigations appear to be rare. thousands of women are cyber stalked every year. the recourse for them is often nothing, which is a problem. ten cases have been prosecuted.
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somehow in this case, because jill kelly knew a guy, an investigation got opened here. if the thing that decides whether a case is open is someone has an agent's business card, then we are in trouble. in the midst of this coverage, it's difficult to separate it from trivial and the relevant. as gripping as the tale is, it is almost entirely that, a human drama. people acting as people do. i'm reasonably sure, a sweep of e-mails opened at random would reveal similarly sorted things. that's the point. we all have facts about ourselves we don't want the world to know. it's why privacy is important. details over our lives matter as a core protection from state overreach. the power that comes from inside knowledge of a person's secrets and their private lives have been throughout history accompliced tyranny.
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j. hoover days are long gone, his ghost hovers over all of us. i'm joined by spencer, and a correspondent for news week and the daily beast. david from author of the e-book why romney lost. it makes me think you started working on it five years ago. it's great to have all of you here. you have been doing fantastic reporting about the security state and technology. tell me about the conditions under which the government can read my e-mail? i think the first thought we had when he saw this is what does the fbi have to do to get into your e-mail account? >> it's shocking. as a result of a series of weird supreme court decisions from the late '70s.
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the government doesn't have to meet that high of a standard. there's a 1986 law that governs federal access to electronic communications. while it requires a warrant for access to unopened e-mails, it permits a subpoena or a court order based on a weak showing of relevance to be used to access e-mails that have been opened, documents stored in the cloud and also e-mails that sat unopened for more than six months. in this case, it looks like a warrant was used to get at broadwell's e-mails. it seems like probably the attorney general should have had to personally sign off on that. i'm curious if it was done in this case. they don't have the kinds of added protections that apply if it were a wiretap to her phone line. if it were a phone wiretap, they would have had to show there wasn't a less intrusive way to
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conduct the investigation. implement min miization procedures, the kind of thing where they hang up the phone if it's a mobster's wife calling as opposed to the target. if you think of the vast amount of e-mail archives that are stored in a cloud service like g-mail, it is weird that we don't apply this. every constitutional reason you would want those added protections, secret, the volume of innocent information that's exposed seems to apply to e-mail, but they don't. >> this basic fact which i have learned in reading about this and prepping for today's show, that 1986 act, the electronic privacy act, ecpa. e-mails over six months, the government can go to the e-mail provider and say hey, can you give me their e-mails and they say sure. think about e-mails sitting on your server older than six
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months as having a big sign on your house in terms of privacy. >> yeah. in the sixth circuit, there's a case where a court did say for those older e-mails, the fourth amendment applies there. it's amazing to me it took as long as as it did to rule the fourth amendment is applicable to e-mails. google has been aggressive about pushing back. they are able. they have a solid legal team to insist on a warrant. it's not clear why a warrant would have been granted in this case once they identified the person who sent the e-mails. again, there you have it. >> this is the days before e-mail was stored. >> the logic behind the 1986 law, this is written, again, at a time when -- >> most people are downloading e-mail which is the physical thing you have to search. >> e-mail is going to be prot t
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protected. no one is going to store all these e-mails out in the cloud. a megabyte of storage space cost $100. >> both of you are national security reporters and report on intelligence. we have seen the growth of this and there's amazing reporting on this. there's little political pushback. aclu and ccr groups do remarkable work. in terms of constituency for privacy, it's hard to locate that. i wonder if you think why it is and if it changes this die noomic. >> i think people are upset about the violations of privacy than the government. i think it's something people get worked up about. someone can read your e-mails and have access to them. >> there's a constituency you can see that is searching for a champion. there's a bit of a projection in
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that community, 2008, that it might be barack obama, the former constitutional law professor who talked in the days when he was coming to the senate about the accesses of the bush area surveillance programs. has a reasonable chance of becoming president and there's an important senate fight over authorizing those somewhat legally grandfathering them in and making them legal. he jumps to the side of enormous executive power. we haven't seen, there are some people, rand paul is a good example. ron is another good example. people who are recognizing there is across the spectrum, a fear about how much information the government can saimply and easiy have. seeing someone make it an issue. the irony might be the david petraeus electronic records.
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>> that's the interesting thing particularly for conservatives. it seems it would be possible to build constituency there. i want to hear your thoughts after this break. if you think running a restaurant is hard, try running four. fortunately we've got ink. it gives us 5x the rewards on our internet, phone charges and cable, plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase. can i still ship a gift in time for christmas? yeah, sure you can. great. where's your gift? uh... whew. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. ship fedex express by december 22nd for christmas delivery. no, no, no, stop! humans -- one day, we're coming up with the theory of relativity, the next...
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when brands compete, you save. mattress price wars ends soon at sleep train. ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ it's been interesting to watch conservatives respond to the petraeus news. i think he's fought it well among conservatives. he's always working for barack obama and there's a scandal around him. i wonder, do you think there's a constituency on the right for an actual privacy interest? >> i'm one of the less liberal conservatives you are going to talk to. the startling thing is there's not enough secret si. i think it's understandable the fbi would want to know that if
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someone has classified documents whose had an intimate relationship with the cia director, you want to know about that. you might have a leak here. once you discover, it's purely personal, why did it make it into the newspapers at all. in a different time and place, the way it would have been handled, the fbi would have concluded their investigation, shared it with the president. >> they wouldn't just let you know he knows this about you. fighting a bureaucratic battle. >> right now, i'm reading the biography of dwight eisenhower. everyone new of his affair. he talked of divorcing his wife. they said if you do that, you will be fired. if you don't divorce your wife, we will keep it quiet. the president could have refused petraeus' resignation.
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it seems to me it's like saying new yorkers are threatened by a giant tsunami and the risk of great white sharks. one is so colossal an event. >> you are talking technology. >> technology. every humiliating privacy story. remember the woman who wrote an intimate love letter to a man she met and he forwarded it to 87 of his friends? i don't know where she lives now, probably new zealand. the lives of the younger people we know, none of the things that ruined their lives have anything to do with government. it's the technological possibility. >> what do you say to general john allen? at a certain point, allen's e-mails seem to be friendly and flirtatious. what we know, the woman gets swept up for reasons that are not clear to myself and other
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reporters, sent to the pentagon for an investigation because the flirtatious e-mails might indicate adulterous affairs. it's a government issue. >> if we never read about it, there would have been no problem. the reason it's catastrophic is because it was leaked. this is a story about leakage. >> it's bizarre. >> it's not an investigation into the leaking of classified documents. this was an investigation into half a dozen snarky e-mails. i am libertarian. you are individualistic about this. when the fbi was spying on the sexual activities of martin luther king and other activists, members of the supreme court, members of executive agencies was not that it was individually embarrassing for them, in violation of their personal dignity, politically, in a democracy, the kind of power
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that comes with that information is dangerous beyond, whatever indignity is on the individual. >> we are going keep a close eye on the private activities, the director of the cia. they have valuable information. there happens to be -- that is something that -- counter espionage is a fact of life, but it doesn't have to appear in the newspaper. monitoring his e-mail from the cia, you would be less disturbed by it. >> he said in march, talking the new era of tech. i would like to discuss three challenges, the utter transparency of the digital world, we have to rethink our notions of identity and secret si. >> when mitt romney, think of the two biggest stories of the romney campaign for presidency. the 47% comment produced because somebody had a smartphone.
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it will happen again and again to people in politics. it has nothing to do with the stakes. >> i wonder what your career ending moment might be. >> it's a delicious buffet. >> i won't tell anybody. it reminded me of what you are saying about the investigation. yesterday, i was talking to somebody from joint operations command. he said the problem was with the fbi, they investigated. as soon as say thaw the e-mails and what they said about paula they should have dropped the whole thing. i think they should double down and do a full court press on this. there should be a heart break division at the fbi investigating the crimes. i think things will be better there. >> you think that? >> yeah. sure. >> here is the question. now, there's private things. i don't want to minimize this. the question is, as a matter of substance and policy, then the question is, should what we learned about general petraeus
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cause us to rethink his relationship with the press? >> we should -- we have so few good generals. the president should have refused his resignation. i don't think a general can retire. you remain on active duty. call him back. >> his contribution to the cult of petraeus. there's a book of history of generals. we are going talk to them about the legacy of general petraeus after this. pink castle thing. and you really don't want to pay more than you have to. only citi price rewind automatically searches for the lowest price. and if it finds one, you get refunded the difference. just use your citi card and register your purchase online. have a super sparkly day! ok. [ male announcer ] now all you need is a magic carriage. citi price rewind. buy now. save later. the capability of a pathfinder with the comfort of a sedan? ♪
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it's heightened because the affair was with a woman writing a biography of him. i want to bring in tom ricks, author of "the generals." also senior fellow for new american security. tom, i'll start with you. do you think we should be this should occasion us to take a hard look at the coverage of general petraeus over the last eight years? >> no question that general petraeus recognized he needed to talk to the media. i think, what worries me are the lessons of it. hey, you are too smart like david petraeus and you get in trouble. it's the wrong lesson. petraeus understood one of the roles of the general was to be a megaphone, to explain policies, reach out to his soldiers, to
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the american people and in iraq to the iraqi people. and give his views out there. he has a ph.d. from princeton. he likes reporters and had a successful first tour in iraq. in the army it's three strikes. you are talking the fbi scandal. i think there are two. one is the invasion of privacy. the fbi looking at a lovers quarrel. the other scandal, i think it's more worrisome is that nobody pays attention to these wars until there's a titillating affair. it makes me think, we as a people, care more about the sex lives of our generals than the real lives or our soldiers. the scam is we tolerated three years of lousy generalship in iraq. tommy franks,ry car doe sanchez and george casey.
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the scandal is 11 commanders in 11 years in afghanistan. it's no way to run anything. >> there's an amazingly brutal hilarious headline about americans horrified to learn details of afghanistan while searching for sex details. >> there's a war going on. >> spencer, i want you to respond to tom here. you wrote a piece that i thought was an honest piece about how you contributed to the cult of david petraeus and what you think about the relationship between the press and petraeus specifically and generals in the military more broadly. >> when i was covering the broadwell affair, it was hard to understand the affair and how it started without understanding the cult of personality that existed. there's a reason he's having an affair. there's purchase for a lot of biographies. >> four biographies published on petraeus? >> something like four and a
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half. depending on how you count them. this was a media strorry, it would be dishonest not to look at my role here. you know, i want to take a little bit of an issue with something tom said. you know, petraeus likes journalists and so forth. i think petraeus had a mission to pull off, getting information out to the public that was favorable about about the war itself. that's what i want to look at. it happened to be the case as i think, you know, tom experienced as well. a lot of petraeus' peers did not want the back and forth he made himself available for. it was occasion for myself viewing petraeus as being a more intellectually honest stuart of this war. i want to account for that.
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>> one of the things that came out here, you hear now in the aftermath, a lot of his peers didn't like him and resented him and were frustrated and thought he was a con artist. i don't necessarily say, well, clearly they are right and petraeus was a terrible kind of con artist and he pulled one over on the american people. i would have liked to have known that back during the period when all coverage of him was positive than now in the aftermath. >> well, you should have read my book. >> no, i did. you are an exception to that. i wrote about criticism of petraeus in my book. he stands out as a good general in comparison to his peer group. we have a lot of mediocre generals in the army. we have very few effective ones. the lesson here in the army is go ahead and be mediocre as long as you keep your pants on. this is a terrible outcome in
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which public performance, education of one's duty's get a free pass. it's like being a university professor. you can do a lousy job. >> that's a bad -- >> i wish we were focusing much more on how good generals are than what they do at home at night. >> one of the legacies also of general petraeus is the ways in terms of counter surgeon si and his tenure in the cia is the emergence of an ongoing perpetual secret war. but when i was in an accident... i was worried the health care system spoke a language all its own with unitedhealthcare, i got help that fit my life. so i never missed a beat. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare.
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david petraeus would bolster the strikes in pakistan and yemen. the cia is shifting in quite a remarkable way. i think it's undercovered. how important do you think this move to a para military is for the agency and the future? >> i mean it's extremely important. petraeus' affair, for all the privacy issues make people talk about the war in afghanistan and also what's happening with the cia. it didn't start with petraeus. the military started a lot of years ago. the 9/11 commission report came out in 2004 saying the cia needed to get their act together and conduct paramilitary operations in a way they haven't done before. >> the history of the agencies involved in these tends to be
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between the extremes between collecting and analyzing intelligence and operations. it seems like you are always asking the cia to do several impossible things. one is the untraceable operations that max mally impact the foreign policy or you are asking them to predict the future. neither of which, this expectation is healthy for the conduct of, you know, the intelligence we need. >> i want to show this. it's interesting. there was a lot of concern when michael hayden was nominated to run the cia saying it should be a civilian agency. it is a civilian agency and the militarization of it. here's some republicans and democrats expressing their concern about this in the bush administration when hayden was
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nominated. >> there's a power struggle going on between the department of defense and the entire rest of the intelligence community. i don't see how you have a four-star general heading up the cia. >> we should not have a military person leading a civilian agency at this time. >> you can't have the military, i think, control, you know, most of the major aspects of intelligence. >> the fact that he is a part of the military today is the major problem. >> tom, one of the concerns there is the cia would be an independent check on pentagon intelligence. i wonder where that objection went. >> well, i actually think it's overstated. the first director of the cia was a general himself. there's always been a close o operation in a lot of ways. i think the tension seems to be between fbi and cia. there's also a direct connection between what they are saying with drone warfare and the
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petraeus affair. they both go to the issue of american at attention to a great democracy, waging war, killing people overseas and nobody here paying attention. 1% of the nation fights 99% of the nation does not pay attention. i think it's reckless for this country. >> one of the problematic worries about the secret wars are conducted via robot is that that only accelerates the tendency. now, if we can conduct the wars in secret and there's not human beings whose boots are on the ground, our fellow citizens, that gives us one more reason to withdrawal. >> it's fire forget warfare with a congress that doesn't know how to question. a media that doesn't understand the military or espionage much anymore. the american public would rather not pay attention.
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they are sick of the wars. it's a potent mix. >> we are going have more of it in three years for three reasons. pressures on the defense budget make the president rely on the lighter and cheaper agencies. the frustrations of the second term, at least after the first three months drive the presidents to be more activists in foreign policy. finally, the legacy of benghazi. four americans killed. it will continue to be one. the lesson the president will draw from that is get a lot of robots killed and have no congressional investigations. >> this has to be said. a lot of pakistani civilians. >> that really leads to no investigations. >> i know that. to me, that's the big moral problem. >> one of the things that tends to get swept up in these discussions is that the lesson of the past 11 years of wars is we don't know how to win wars. we lost the sense of waging wars that we can actually triumph in.
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the mark of the past, i suppose 11 years of war for success is we keep fighting they will. that's the measure of success. when we are fighting wars in secret with no disclosure about their operations, there's not going to be any available metrics for what success in those things are. it's another reason the spread of these wars into the shadows is problematic. >> this is not a new thing. >> it doesn't matter -- it's an accelerated series. >> decelerated. the scale of the secret wars between 47 and 89, what's been happening since 2001. >> of course. but there was a national reckoning where we recognize there was a tremendous amount of horrible things done. a lot of strategic disasters done. that's something, a lesson we have not quite learned. >> you need not to give up because that secret war ended in -- >> we are overdue for a
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reckoning. thanks for joining us this morning. you at home should be reading all of them. great reporters. thank you so much. the latest on the fighting in gaza, how it started and what happens next, when we come back.
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the conflict between israeli forces intensified this morning expanding the bombing to government and media buildings. they fired rockets toward tel aviv. they intercepted one incoming rocket this morning. at a press conference in thailand, president obama asserted israel's right to defend itself. >> let's understand what the event here was that's causing the current crisis. that was an ever escalating
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number of missiles that were landing not just in israeli territory, but in areas that are populated. and, there's no country on earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on thinker citizens. we are supportive of israel's right to defend itself from missiles landing on people's homes and workplaces and potentially killing civilians. we will continue to support israel's right to defend itself. now, what is also true is that we are actively working with all the parties in the region to see if we can end those missiles being fired without further
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escalation. >> the troops along the israel gaza border. israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu said they are going to expand the operation. the back and forth has been escalating since wednesday when they killed a chief. since then, israel carried out air strikes on targets in gaza. the death toll is at 56. hamas retaliated killing three civilians in a small town in southern israel thursday. netanyahu said israel will not tolerate the continues rocket fire. >> no government would tolerate a situation where nearly a fifth of its people live under a constant barrage of rockets and fire. israel will not tolerate it. israel will take whatever action is necessary to defend our
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people. >> in response, hamas' prime minister said a time in which the israeli operation does what it wants and gaza is gone. he was not there at the time. what ignited the most recent round of fighting? ramped up rocket fire which demands military response. according to defense forces, the palestinian militants fired more into israel in october this year than all of 2011. there's a semitri in the death toll. the fighting between the militants in 2009 through september of this year, 25 israelis have been killed by palestinians while 314 palestinians have been killed according to the israeli human rights organization. one of the palestinian casualty, a 13-year-old boy killed by israeli forces in a gunfight on november 8th.
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many point to that as a major escalation of the fighting. as to how and when it will end, they said thursday, it's unclear. we cannot predict what the end point is. at the moment, there's no reason to stop. joining me at the table are an israeli journalist and a former idf officer. it's wonderful to have you all here. i wish it were under better conditions. as americans watching this, the conflict seems constant. once this awhile, rockets start flying or there's a bombing strike and i think americans look and say what happened? why now? i'll start with you from the
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israeli perspective, what is your understanding of why this is happening now and what internal political dynamics in israel are leading to the decisions being made to per sue this? >> there's the issue of rocket that is have been escalating in the months leading to this assault on gaza. there's also a number of border incidents. israel is controlled around the gaza strip. it defines 17% of the street is in no man's land. around this area, sort of security zone, if you want. incidents in which palestinians were killed, soldiers injured and that contributed to the escalation. what's important, i think, is from the perspective of the israeli leadership. there's a political window for opportunity here. we are heading for elections in israel. they demand a more proactive approach to the conflict. >> there's polling out showing
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why it's massive israeli -- we'll see if there's a ground invasion if that were to continue. i wonder from the perspective of internal politics in gaza, what are the politics driving the increase in rocket fire is the first question and what are the politics driving the response now in the midst of this? >> first of all, there's a number of factions in gaza, including hamas and a variety of other factions. the israeli, through the egyptians have been working with hamas to crack down on the rocket fire and that has worked, largely thanks to one of the point people there who they just assassinated. obviously, that created a significant problem. one israeli journalist put it that israel had eliminated its s subcontractor in gaza. the palestinians object -- and
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are willing to not, you know, respond to what's going on in gaza as long as these assassinations don't continue. as long as they have continued, we have seen increases in rocket fire. the bottom line is, there's no military solution to this issue. you simply cannot bomb people into liking you. it's not going to work. so -- >> i just wanted to add to that. we discuss what per sip at a timed this. it's the debate in our media cycle. if all rocket fire were to stop today and all missile strikes and ground offensive in israel were to stop, the violence against palestinians would continue in the form of occupation, arbitrary detention. when we ask what started it, we are not getting to the root of
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it. >> let's talk about gaza and the blockade. >> it's a little thick to hear it said hamas objects to assassination. stock and trade is mass murder. >> we'll get back to that. the other fact we are referring to is jihad, the popular resistance committee. they are the ones firing the rocket even if hamas was tasked with enforces the cease-fire. more on this after this break. [ female announcer ] with secret outlast clear gel, there's no white marks or worries.
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you referred to killing in reference to the killing of who israel said was a terrorist and the master mind to killing. it was a huge issue. to get a sense of israeli public opinion as we understand, this is the opposition leader on target of killing, he says i'm
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in favor of targeting killings. during the suicide bombing, they would pay a price. the idf put up a graphic of him celebrating his demise with the word eliminated. this is, i think, a popular policy in israel. it's seen as, essentially, a targeted way of dealing with -- the term that's been used is mowing the lawn. if you essentially left them to fester, they plot and the rockets go up. every four years, you have to go in and do something. >> it's maybe effected in the short term. what i'm concerned about is the fact there's no long term policy from the sight of the israeli government. basically, the only thing the government is offering the public is the targeted killings.
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had there been a vision, we might have seen some support to it as well. you mentioned former defense minister as the leader of the position called for negotiation with hamas on a diplomatic settlement around the gaza strip. the government, so far, is limiting its tools to military assassinations to assaults. it pretty much makes it clear this escalation only leads up to further escalations in the future. >> one part of the context is hamas had been building a sophisticated rocket force over the past year. that was the spector, the force behind it. the driving of the timing of the attack. they were going to get better rockets and they are arriving rapidly. the second thing that needs to be said is of course it's right.
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you want to look for a long term diplomatic solution. peace, because peace cannot be made with hamas, you have talks with people there, it's not possible. they require the palestinian authority to exert power over gaza. >> they lost -- they had their leadership killed by hamas. >> that has been -- who is michael collins of the palestinians? he's the irish leader who went to war with his own i.r.a. a couple points here. first of all, in terms of mowing the lawn, the id yum the israeli's use, it eas callous. we are talking 80% whom rely daily on handouts.
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half of them under the age of 18. there's no long term strategic. if you sow seeds of hate -- >> more on this after the break. ? [ chuckles ] ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] around view monitor with bird's-eye view. nice work. [ male announcer ] introducing the all-new nissan pathfinder. it's our most innovative pathfinder ever. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪ nissan. innovation that excites. i'i invest in what i know.r. i turned 65 last week. i'm getting married. planning a life. there are risks, sure. but, there's no reward without it. i want to be prepared for the long haul. i see a world bursting with opportunities. india, china, brazil, ishares, small-caps, large-caps, ishares. industrials. low cost.
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to learn more, visit tempurpedic.com. don't wait. five-year special financing ends november 20th. tempur-pedic. the most highly recommended bed in america. hello from new york, i'm chris hayes. david from the news week and you receive,erer talking about the conflict in gaza. you said if you talk about the context of what gaza is. norah, they said this thing that is a consensus in israel and the u.s. consensus, i mean broadly shared, you cannot make peace with hamas. i'm curious what your thoughts are. >> hamas is on record stating
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they would enter into peace on the 1967 borders even if it wasn't permanent, they were willing to enter into the negotiations. more importantly, more importantly, israel said they have not had a partner pr peace until 1987. before then, israel didn't have a partner for peace. before 2006, israel said they couldn't be a partner for peace and withdrew from gaza. 2006 they become the partner that israel can deal with and hamas is the problem. the problem is not that. it's whether or not israel wants a diplomatic solution or whether it thinks it could pummel gaza, pummel palestinians into it without having to negotiate on settlements on water distribution, on border rights, on the freedom of movement. >> it does seem to me, i
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remember when i was in israel where a rocket just landed recently and talking to someone who was a settler. i said to him, this just seems -- is this the way it's going to be? he said yeah, it's fine. basically, it's not great. it's not ideal. this is what it's going to be opposed to five or ten years ago. earlier in the process, there's an idea that this is heading to an end point, which is peace, the two-state solution. israeli public opinion is, this is how it is. >> israeli leadership is recognizing the fact that the equilibrium point. things are unbearable there. ultimately, the status quo is the solution from the perfective of this government.
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the palestinians have their war every day of the week. in the long term, this is something that plays against israeli interest. there's no incentive for the leadership to move from it, especially with the free hand it gets from the free world and the united states. >> anyone watching, if you put aside who is responsible for the current state of affairs, you get to be beamed down into being a citizen of gaza or say tel aviv, i think anyone -- what is status quo means for the day-to-day lives is no different. >> you said how americans become of this when there's violence. if you take a review, the defining factor for everyone on the israeli side and the jewish community is the disappointment of the process. especially for the jewish community in the united states and other places, the process
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was really believed in. i'm an active member of the community. we believed it. the israeli politicians were most popular outside israel where they spoke for the people. people like benjamin netanyahu were distrusted. what happened, and this is the price we are all living in the aftermath of the war is the collapse of liberal opinion in israel. nobody believes in it anymore. the reason people think the conflict can only be managed is because of the two terrible years israelis were killed by terrorism. just about everybody, the reason netanyahu was concerned in the ex-jewish world. the liberals were wrong. it didn't work. >> there's no doubt violence is happening with complete asemitritrs with a more military
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population largely palestinian population. that does happen. it happens on both sides. only one side, though, cl is the israeli side, has the capacity to physically change the map on the ground through extensive territory. when talking about the process, which was the objective of which was to have a palestinian state emerge on 22% of palestinian. that is the thing that is torpedoing that objective. there is less and less and less of palestine to talk about. >> people tuning into this debate, this is the way the argument tends to go when you talk the current status quo, people will say on the israeli side, the thing that's driving the impossibility of peace, it is the trauma and the belief there is no negotiating partner on the other side. people on the palestinian side say what is driving the impossibility of peat.
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is the continued settlement activity of an israeli government showing their hand. one person said negotiating over the pizza while eating a pizza. >> i had a question for david. it's the starting point that shattered this faith among liberal jewish community that could be a negotiated settlement. what about the years between 1993 and 2000 where under the leadership, settlement stumbled? this was during the hay day of when we were supposed to have a solution. does that factor into the liberal jewish community's consolation of factors of what actually drove, torpedoed the peace process. >> certainly, what american jews think, they would be more liberal. you are driving toward a goal. because the settlements are
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about money in the end, they are buildings. >> on palestinian land. >> they are the future of palestinian apartment blocks of the future. that's the way we would have thought of this. >> on destroyed lands. >> they are useful things. the thinking was then there would be a deal and probably the buildings would be turned over and they are evacuated from gaza, 8,000 of them. that was the hope. that is the hope that is gone. when you talk to people listening to this show, that feeling of absent hope. one of the things you have to -- this process has to include is the restoration. there is more than that. >> the problem is they are creating those. right now, every fifth person is a jewish settler. you raise the political price of any move from the status quo for israeli leadership. right now, even if this prime minister or the next prime minister will want to go to an
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agreement, the internal pressure against it will be enormous. israel is feeding the trends that put the long term survival of the state at risk. >> let me say this, as someone who is not a passivist, but close to. when i read about hamas executing someone on the streets, it sends chills down my spine. when i read about a dead 11-month-old child of a stringer from the bbc in gaza from an air strike, it's devastating. the thing that bothers me about this or that makes me upset, it doesn't seem like anyone is creating action for anything other than violence. this is true of the west bank. there have been nonviolent resis tense. there's been hunger strikes and marches that are peaceful. whatever you say, well you think their claims are bad enough, it seems the first thing is to get
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the conflict on non-violent f footing. there are no incentives right now for non-violence. what are the next steps to get to non-violence after this break? by switching to a cheaper detergent than tide. and, what did i tell you? that it was a bad idea. and? and she was right... the clothes weren't as clean and even i could tell. so, no savings. we're back to tide. and now, i'm doing the laundry all month. with tide, obviously. good boy. "good boy." [ female announcer ] one scoop of tide original gives you more cleaning power than six scoops of the leading power detergent with oxi. [ wife ] that's my tide. what's yours?
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i'll do that. you're on a roll. that's funny. i wasn't being funny, bob. i know.
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left off the conversation talking about a path forward that isn't increasing blood and violence. there's going to be a ground invasion. the consequences last time were not good. hopefully it won't happen. what is the next step, i guess, getting to a cease-fire.
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then, if there is a cessation to the explicit violence, then what? >> well, i'm going to defer. cease-fire is inevitable. it will happen. let me mention something about the first operation of this. in 2008-2009 during operation -- israel thought it could pummel palestinians, i was part of a legal fact finding mission in 2009 and the direct aftermath and interviews with families in gaza. in one part of gaza city is a neighborhood i met with members of a family. the family was rounded up and placed into a single home, 110 of them were in a single home. then an aerial missile struck upon it. the report commented on this. there were dozens of people killed. the red cross was able to remove the body for 17 days afterward.
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this was reported in the gold stone report. i was involved in congress to exert accountability on israel. israel refused any sort of external accountability, conducted their own investigation and said it wauz mistake because there were weapon storage nearby. in order to move to the next step, there must be accountability for israeli aggression and more crimes. in order to reign in, it cannot have a blank check. >> what does that mean? >> understand what that means. there's going to be a cease-fire. what's going to happen as in the past is forget about the issue. that's the problem. we cannot ignore the issue when palestinian officials are being shot by the israelis. we cannot ignore the issue when 12-year-olds are being shot on their side of the border. we cannot ignore the issue when demonstrators are repressed. if we say to the palestinians we
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will not condemn nonviolent decent and we will not condemn israeli impression of violent decent, what we are saying to the palestinians is, you will take your occupation and your repression and you will like it and say nothing about it. that's the problem. the message that we are sending to palestinians from washington is that you are the only nation that does not have a right to self-defense. no nation is going to accept that. >> the message that is being sent to the palestinians is you started war in 2001 and you lost in 2002. now, you have to seek peace on the basis of having lost that war. one of the things -- when you see incentives, if you say to nations, start wars and if you win, you win. if you lose, you have no downside consequence, you get to go back to the first page you were on when you started the
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war. then war becomes as non-democratic and they don't have to consult the people that pay the price. it's a perpetual temptation. what the palestinians are living with now are the consequences of the defeat of 2002. that is not to say everything the israelis do is wise. it's probably not wise to build over and beyond the wall. it creates strategic problems. we are living in a post-war environment. as to your dislike of violence, what is happening is the conflicts are becoming less violent and more symbolic. it is very true of this conflict. it is the internet that is becoming the battlefield, the tv camera. twitter is the battlefield. >> gaza -- >> these are real life. >> it's a real battlefield. i have spoken to my family. there was a siren in tel aviv over gaza.
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what i would like to see is an international involvement after the cease-fire is reached. i think we send the palestinians the opposite message of what you are saying because what happened. looking at wholistic approach, after the first, we were willing to go. after the second we give the disengagement. we pulled out. basically, the palestinians have only gotten something through violence. the only thing is that it had to be a greater violence than you can imagine to achieve something like that. the long term concept is in palestinian. i agree there is an international indifference to the conflict when it's not contained or managed. in israel, in this part, i agree with you, there is a comfort zone around containing the conflict. you have to move away from this as difficult politically as it is. i would like to see american involve maryland and international involvement.
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>> here is the thing i would say. what i would like to see as an american citizen is american government and institutions, again, move the conflict to non-violent footing, which is to say support those people in palestine and there are many struggling for their interests in a non-violent fashion as opposed to ignoring them or worrying about the conflict when there is violence. it cease part of the problem. i want to thank you for joining us this morning. thanks for the great conversation. the strike threatening walmart for the first time on black friday is next. vent clips could eliminate the odor. [ woman ] take a deep breath, tell me what you smell. something fresh. a clean house. [ woman ] take your blindfolds off. oh!! hahahaha!!! [ male announcer ] febreze car. eliminates odors, so you can breathe happy. ♪ don't know what i'd do
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flavor boost, meet beef. it's swanson flavor boost. concentrated broth to add delicious flavor to your skillet dish in just one stir. mmm! [ female announcer ] cook, meet compliments. get recipes at flavorboost.com. this friday is black friday. the shopping phenomenon that seems to get bigger every year. for walmart, a big box retailer
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that helped start it. it can account for 40% of sales. black friday needs to go smoothly. a strike plan by walmart for black friday is potentially important. in the past, threats from workers have been largely empty. labor organizations tried to hold walmart accountable for it. workers fighting for better conditions and end to company retaliation against workers who speak up pulled off work stoppages around the country. retail workers walked out of 28 walmarts in 28 states. these actions are truly unprecedented and raised the stakes for black friday. walmart dismissed the strikes saying this is just another exaggerated campaign to mislead
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our customers and associations. they appear to be taking it very, very seriously. in mid-october, tom mars held a very rare meeting with three warehouse workers. friday, walmart asked the labor board for an injunction. they cite them responsible for the actions. it's the company's first legal action of months of unrest. the plan for black friday is seen as a threat by a company that's been impervious to hold them accountable. joining us is a walmart associate and helen the vice president of think tank and a member of warehouse workers united who works in a california warehouse, a walmart distribution center. walmart said they had no one available to join our conversation today. >> can you tell me about the work you do? you are working in a warehouse.
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what does it look like, how much money do you make? >> okay. thank you for having me on the show. the warehouse that i work at is in california. the work we do is like, it's hard work but it's doable work. the conditions, like the equipment is broken and the ramps are broken, which is very dangerous as well as not having water. we used to pay for our gloves and our masks and, you know, safety goggles, all our equipment. for the work we do, we lift heavy boxes and we from trailer to trailer. the weather out there, it goes up to like 120 degrees. >> so, it's 120 degrees, a trailer that gets pulled into the warehouse center and your temperature there is 102 on the thermometer. there's stuff in the australtrad
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that's the work. you go in and carry it out? >> yeah. we put it on a cart and pull the cart. the carts are normally, you know, broken, you know, like disassembled and all that. we pull the carts out and like another guy comes and takes the carts and loads it in the trailer. >> how much money do you make? who are you working for directly? >> i make $8 an hour and we work for work staff, which is a company, an agency that nfi hired, which is walmart hired nfi. >> walmart hired a company that hires you. the temp agency hires you? >> yes. >> why did you get involved? what are your complaints? what do you want to see change in your workplace? >> what i want to see changed is better opportunities to move up.
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of course a living wage. i have to work two jobs to support my family. to support and have a good, decent life. safety. like i don't -- i go to work and i don't know if i'm going to go home. >> greg, you are an associate in a store. >> i am. there are 1.6 million workers in stores, i think. i'm curious what your experience has been like? >> my experience is that, you know, walmart has a motto. it's on the commercials, save money, live better. what we find in the stores, and my store throughout the country is they don't live up to that as far as how it reflects in the way they treat their workers. an example is the holiday, thanksgiving. we had that day off. now, they have that day open. i work 5:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m.
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5:00 p.m. thursday. that's my schedule. my wife from 3:00 to 12:00. i have a 6-year-old and a 1-year-old, two sons. this is the second thanksgiving we are not going to have time with them. many families are like that. i have several workers in my store alone who talk about the grandparents of their children get to have these family experiences, but we don't. i would like to see more of family concerns for, you know, for them living up to that image they have of being a family store. >> you and your wife both work for walmart? >> yes. >> how possible is it to, i don't want to pry into your personal finances, but how possible is it to have a middle class life? >> um, we really can't. that's the honest truth. you know, a lot of times, going on vacations or trips is more with the larger family, expenses
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shared. on your own, working at walmart for the largest retailer in the world, we can't do that. it's just not right. >> you guys are both here on national television. we have your names on the screen. i wonder if you worry about walmart taking action against you in retaliation for having these -- getting involved in organizations? >> i'm not afraid. i'm not afraid. i'll sit right here, i will be striking, for sure. the reason why is for me personally. this is my third time i striked. the people at our store outside los angeles, i have been to home office twice. we know our rights. we know this is something we have the right to do. we are morally and idealistically correct in doing so. >> the realuation we get against is is like, what can they do
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more? cut our hours? i made $29 on one check. they cut my hours dramatically. >> do you think they have done that because you are involved? >> yes. it's the main reason why. we went on strike before. so, you know, they didn't fire us, but they cut all our hours. we are working one day, sometimes a half day. >> i have an associate that was fired unlawfully. >> hold that thought. more on this when we get back. fs starts with ground beef, unions, and peppers baked in a ketchup glaze with savory gravy and mashed russet potatoes. what makes stouffer's meatloaf best of all? that moment you enjoy it at home. stouffer's. let's fix dinner.
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well, having a ton of locations doesn't hurt. and my daughter loves the santa. oh, ah sir. that is a customer. let's not tell mom. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. fedex office.
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because we live in america and we work for the world's largest company and we are still not making it. >> because i choose between paying my bills and having enough to eat. >> i'm 52 years old and i can't afford my own apartment with what i make at walmart. >> my fellow associates have to
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use local food pantries. >> i'm tired of being discriminated by management. >> we have to depend on each other check by check and borrow money from each other to make it for the week. >> i spoke out in my store and walmart fired me for it. >> walmart says that they do not fire people as retaliation. that's on the record. it would be illegal. heather, the context for this, to broaden this out is we have a -- one of the largest employers and kind of setting a benchmark for post labor practices, logistics, marketing practices, pricing. i guess people will say look, yeah, it sounds like it's not a lot of fun being a walmart associate but it's low wage work and walmart guarantees their customers lower prices. so, sorry, this is the way the
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market works. >> we wanted to actually dig into this question. we have seen a shift, a historic shift from gm being the largest employer, an employer that helped create the middle class to walmart. is it necessary to actually have low wages in order to have low prices? that's the question. everybody says that's the trade off. we looked at the largest chain stores. if we were to -- if they were to raise the wage floor so the lowest paid worker made $25,000 a year for full time employment, a 27% raise from the typical retail worker now, what would that do? we found, the reports being released tomorrow, we found it would lift 700,000 people out of poverty. it would give 5.3 million
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workers a raise. and it would create 100,000 jobs. you are putting money in hands of people that are going to spend. >> it would be a stimulus. >> a private sector retail-led stimulus. that's great. but you want your black friday flat screen. the question is how much would it cost? the whole large chain store sector would cost $20 billion to do this kind of wage flip. how does that compare? one, it's actually less than just the top ten largest retailers spent buying back their own shares in the market last year. it's something they do to boost earnings per share. it doesn't have productivity improvements. it's good for executive comp. when it comes to consumers, right, it would be, at most, on average, 15 cents per shopping trip if they passed the entire cost of that wage increase on to consumers. so, 15 cents, less than a
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quarter, can the american people afford a stimulus that is going to lift the wages of 5 million people? i think we can. >> how are you going to achieve it? you are not going to achieve it when labor markets are slack? >> why not? >> labor, like everything else is high. when you have high unemployment that's -- we have had slack markets. it's market theory. retailers paying their workers more. >> they compete with other retailers. people who are small retailers become big retailers. the question that viewers have to consider that people take -- you have to have what we had, tight labor markets. that was partly because of demographics. it was also because of restricted immigration laws. what we have done, we have had essentially open immigration
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since the early 1970s. we have had a huge follow on baby boom and now slack markets. we have educational standards -- >> i don't understand how -- i mean we have shown that the companies can afford it. we are not talking about going back to a $50,000 a year, full pension job, we are talking a raise to $25,000 a year. the companies can afford it. when you put it on market forces. >> companies can afford a lot of things. why should they do it? >> it would be a benefit. it would be a benefit to retailers as well. $5 billion would go back to the retail sector. walmart customers would have more money in their pockets. >> let me insert myself into this. it's not just, you know, the walton family on one side or the slackness on labor markets. >> workers have power when
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markets are tight. >> workers also have power as guaranteed statutorily governments and laws we pass that we ignore. that's also part of it. you have absolutely the right to engage in activity like you gentlemen are doing and not be retaliated on. >> it's where we fit into the mix. all of that makes sense if the workers are passive and accept what is being handed to them. it's why standing up and living better, the motto of our group is so important. we are saying, look, we are people. i have -- my children ask me, why aren't you here? i can do fun things, sometimes we can't afford to rent a movie. >> i want to talk to you about the importance of wages on one hand and autonomy after this break. into their work,
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their name on the door, and their heart into their community. small business saturday is a day to show our support. a day to shop at stores owned by our friends and neighbors. and do our part for the businesses that do so much for us. on november 24th, let's get out and shop small.
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david, you talked about what are the dynamics that are going to raise the conditions for workers in walmart and retail more broadly. there's a catch here. williampool, he was then chief executive of federal reserve bank of st. louis. there were labor activity that happened in 2006, spearheaded by the ufcw. he said my walmart contact said walmart is in the process of raising starting wages in 700 stores. this is the first time in eight years of talking with them i have heard a comment like that. some of the raises are part of the political agenda that suggests this does have an effect. you are in arkansas, right? in a meeting with someone from walmart. tell me about that meeting. >> well, like, he spoke a lot. what he had to say, really,
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wasn't -- it was like the history of it. we all do kind of know about the history of walmart and how it got started. what he -- how he acted when i told him how the conditions were, he acted like, you know, he didn't know anything about it. like, it's the first time i'm hearing of it. in one sense, it is believable that he was telling the truth. in the second sense, he knew about it and he's not really doing anything. >> have conditions changed since the meeting? >> yes, the conditions have. >> how, specifically? >> well, like, we didn't have water, fresh water at all throughout the warehouse. now we do. we were drinking from dirty water. sometimes we didn't have water. we do now, but, you know, it's still, there's still empty water
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containers and all that around the warehouse. they don't refill them fast enough because, you know, we all drink water when we are working and sweating and all that. that's just state law. >> right. >> the bar is set, this standard and they were below it. so, he kind of set the standard bar, you know what i'm saying? like, as, you know, what it's supposed to be. >> chris, notice the date on that. 2006. >> right. >> that was at the peak of the post-2003 economic expansion. if you had an expanding economy and tighter markets. >> but david, you have written about this. we have seen in the sort of post-'70s area, periods of full employment that had terrible distribution effects. there's something going on. >> so we all know what is going
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on in the economy overall. we assume that means retailers are suffering. the retail, the large retailers have the most profitable quarter in ten years this year. this past year. the profits are actually booming. the reason why is that particularly they have squeezed workers. you can talk about this as well. people are working more shifts. they squeeze compensation and the sector went down. this is the question, if the workers of these companies have been able to help their companies rebound in a terrible economy, why is it that they can't gain a little bit of the reward for the work? >> exactly. one point i bring up is if our workers had an additional $200-300, the first thing we would do is buy an x-box. >> buy it at walmart. >> they would get it all back. that would be helpful, i imagine. >> we did see that when we did
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the calculation, it would bring $5 billion back in sales the following year. >> yeah. >> low wage workers are job creators. they are the people who are going to be spending 100% of their income, not able to save any. this is an unfortunate thing. it links back to the show yesterday about debt. >> right. >> if we are looking for, in a slack economy, if we are looking for what is going to be the strongest multiplier, money back in the pockets of working people, great. we are not going to see a lot of action from washington on that. we are not going to see it from the public sector. let's see it from the private sector. >> do you get an income tax credit? >> i do. >> is that important to you? >> yes. it is. it's the kind of thing where if i made enough to not receive it, that would be okay, too. >> that's a great -- that's very well said. i want to hear about where your
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fellow workers are. i think you guys are not representative in the sense you are willing to come on television and talk about it. i want to hear where the other people you work with are on this. there's big news. presenting androgel 1.62%. both are used to treat men with low testosterone. androgel 1.62% is from the makers of the number one prescribed testosterone replacement therapy. it raises your testosterone levels, and... is concentrated, so you could use less gel. and with androgel 1.62%, you can save on your monthly prescription. [ male announcer ] dosing and application sites between these products differ. women and children should avoid contact with application sites. discontinue androgel and call your doctor if you see unexpected signs of early puberty in a child, or, signs in a woman which may include changes in body hair or a large increase in acne, possibly due to accidental exposure. men with breast cancer or who have or might have prostate cancer, and women who are, or may become pregnant
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there's -- the warehouse workers united conducted a survey of working conditions, and they found 63% of warehouse workers injured on the job, 83% suffered from job-related illness, 84% witnessed an injury of a co-worker. my question to you is, what is the sentiment like of the folks that you work with, do they sort of think, look, this is the job, this is what i signed up for, do they think this is completely unfair? is it somewhere in between? is there a constituency that's going to be mobilized about this or is there too much churn in who is working in the warehouse to make that happen? >> that's the thing about us. we don't know if we're going to work tomorrow. we don't know if we're ever
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going to go back to work at this warehouse. like with that, it's -- yeah, it's unsafe and already a lot of employees getting hurt. but they can replace them. that's what they normally do. someone gets hurt, they fire them. i mean, that's basically what they do. >> you are working for -- because you are working for a temp agency and you don't have a set schedule, you're not a full-time employee there. they say we need you today, we need you tomorrow and then you go and work? >> yes. >> you have a different relationship, your paycheck comes from walmart? >> right. >> you're inside the store. it's not the layers of subcontractors like raymond has. same question to you about where are associates feelings about this. i like working here, this is the job, this is what i signed up for? >> they all like the job. they all enjoy it. part of what got me into the organization is i've seen too many grown people crying, breaking down because of the stress, the abuse.
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so many people are talked down to. no one has -- very few people have an argument as far as the validity of what we're doing. of course, everyone's reaction is aren't you afraid of being fired? walmart has their ways. it's illegal for them to fire you but they'll find something. everybody tells me they'll find something on you. at the same time, they say someone has had to have done this for a long time. someone needed to step up and we're really doing that. they love it. >> yeah. please. >> one of the key things for us to remember here is that there are retail employers who take a higher road. >> right. >> it is possible to be profitable and there's a lot of research that says better treatment of your workers makes for a better store experience. walmart knows this. they know they have customer satisfaction issues. safe way is a great example of employers that do the right thing, pay a decent rate for decent work and are still in the
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black. >> if i give a great example. i work in the electric next and photo department. so many people wanted to come in and buy a large screen tv and they walk away because no one is there to help them. half the department, because of the value of the merchandise is under lock and key. there has to be someone there to unlock it and there isn't. >> one of the things that's interesting here is that the -- these labor actions seem to have caught some fire or are doing more than previous ones. i wonder what you think the reason for that is. what has changed essentially? >> for me, i think a lot of it is because people have known for a long time how hard it is. the customers come in and they even commented like, i notice people don't smile, i notice you guys look stressed out. i think that we've all known for a long time that this is what it is. again, some of my co-workers are
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glad to see the truth is brought out into the open. >> how much for you is this about wages and how much is sort of basic self-determination or dignity or some kind of control of what your working environment looks like? >> most of it is about that. like for me going home, i mean, yeah, it's the wages, because it is tough out there. but i mean, i have a son and i want to be able to play football with him when he gets a little older. like with that, we're not alone though. we're not the only warehouse. there's a lot of warehouses out there for walmart that move nothing but walmart merchandise. the same thing that's happening in our warehouse is the same at theirs. >> people that shop at walmart or have experience there, are the tip of this massive iceberg of this unbelievable global
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supply chain that is an amazing thing that happens. it happens because there's a lot of workers along the way. heather, one point to you. there's actually within walmart, there's a comparison of sort of high road labor, which is the private walmart truckers. walmart owns the biggest fleet in america and they decided early on because they didn't want the teamsters to come in to pay their truckers very well, they have a lot of autonomy over their hours. there's actually some of the highest compensated truckdrivers in the country, right? they've decided that's a place to invest and it's actually brought productivity. >> i think that goes to show the power that working people banding together has not just in unionized workforces but to put pressure on companies that don't have unions that resist unions fiercely the way that walmart does. unfortunately, the retail sector is highly underunionized or for the type of work and to have the stability, the lack of turnover.
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all of those things that would have improvements for the retail sector itself. >> greg, thank you for coming in. raymond. i want to thank craig fletcher, heather mcghee doing a double duty, yesterday and today. david frum, why romney lost and raymond castillo from warehouse workers united. thank you. >> thank you. we'll be back next weekend, saturday and sunday at 8:00 eastern time. our guests include democratic congressman steve cohen of tennessee. up next is melissa harris-perry on today's mhp, america's prison system in perl. the federal judge speaking out about mandatory minimums and the latest on the fighting in the middle east. i'm sticking around for her discussion of the petraeus scandal. that's melissa harris-perry coming up next. great to have you here. see you next week here on "up." happy thanksgiving everyone. [ male announcer ] when this hotel added aflac
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